Education and the Shaping of Attitudes

[Jennie]

Hi Kitkat! Sorry I haven't introduced myself properly..  Wrote a message a while back but never really told you that much about the project.

Anyways, this is my 4th time in Nongkhai (former volunteer + Travel to Teach staff member). This time doing research for my bachelor thesis, got a scholarship in Sweden which gave me the opportunity to do some field work. It's on "Education and the Shaping of Attitudes", a study on how higher education affect attitudes towards national unity. The theory is education --> increased tolerance --> decreased prejudices (concerning regional differences)--> creates a more positive attitude towards national unity. The links between the variables are of course questionable! And very interesting to investigate!  I hand out questionnaires to university students and low educated in BKK and NK.

Hope that gives you a bit of an idea of what I'm doing here! Feel free to ask anything and we'll also continue to post some pics and updates. 

[KitKat]

Thank you, Jennie, for your prompt reply. It's nice to meet you! Good luck with your
thesis on "Education and the Shaping of Attitudes". It sounds very interesting and I know you will do extremely well. 

Hi Kitkat!
 Feel free to ask anything and we'll also continue to post some pics and updates. 

When you can, thank you for posting pics and updates.   

[ZeroG]

Jennie,

I split your post in Sean's thread into a new thread which is the title of your thesis.

Please feel free to post more about your thesis here. Anything you come up with in your research supports Isara's awesome mission. If there is any place where your ideas will be welcome it is here.

I would love to hear your ideas on the 'links between the variables'.

What motivated you to do this? Was there anything/body in particular which got you thinking about this in this way?

Good luck with your research.

[Jennie]

ZeroG,

Thanks! Feel really flattered to have my own thread..

The idea came from seeing how Isaan and the people here were treated, and I wanted to highlight the situation of segregation between the Northeast/Central. Think the issue is extremely important right now, since I believe the King is almost the one thing that keeps the country together (apart from religion). Politically, economically and culturally, it is diverse in ways that can be rather harmful. I believe that it is really all about people accepting each other and feeling that they belong to the same unit. If this is the case, diversity is only positive, but if not, I think Thailand have a quite uncertain future once the King's "uniting force" is gone. So... is education the solution to all our problems? 

It might sound a bit fluffy, I'm really interested in the big issues and it's tricky narrowing it down to a bachelor thesis..  Hope I can spread some interest though!

Thanks again.

[ZeroG]

Is there a successor to the king? Is the throne vulnerable?

Does your questionnaire address religion? Heck, what are the questions in it?

I believe there is education for the purpose of becoming a productive citizen and there is other more basic education. Basic education on how a divided/prejudice society is no way to live.

A valuable natural resource can ruin a nation. Luck has more to do with power than good ideas in this kind of nation. Look at Afghanistan. Thailand is lucky that it doesn't have the natural resource curse. However, it is unique in how it's young people are vulnerable to moral corruption. So it seems religion, or moral fortitude is the defense Thailand needs to fight the encroachment of a world who preys on the perceived needs of it's citizens.

I don't know much about Buddhism, but I do know that "helping others" and "less is more" are universal tenets of all religions. Knowing how failure to apply these tenets can lead to a failure of a nation is something many have known to be true, but few have implemented.

[Jennie]

I've been talking to Thai friends about the situation with the King. There is a successor, but Thai people don't like him. Someone suggested that it might be a queen next time or even the end of monarchy. (Even if none of those options are very likely!) This King is so loved and I really have no clue how what is going to happen after him. Maybe people can grow to love a new King, because they need it as a part of their daily lives. And yes, religion plays a big role as well, in this case I think it will have a strong positive impact on unity.

However, I don't address religion in my questionnaire. (After all I am a political science student! ) Haha, not sure I can post all the questions here. But they are on regional political, economic and cultural differences, in order to see which ones are perceived and how (tolerance/prejudices). Then the attitudes towards these differences: are differences good or should the government try to prevent them? Finally, is "Thainess" important for the nation and is a more united nation something desirable?

The thing is that more tolerance and less prejudices, suggested to derive from education, is not a guarantee for a positive attitude towards national unity. However, scholars claim that the certain political culture created by education is also favourable for national unity. That is what I mean with the questionable links between the variables. Does education affect attitudes towards national unity, and if so, can the reason be more tolerance and less prejudices?

[Jennie]

Interesting is that I almost think that the education effect in Thailand is reversed. The low educated that I talked to in BKK were surprisingly positive towards unity and regional differences. These were people in the slum that I believe had little knowledge about the differences at all, so to them this isn't really an issue. Instead prejudices come with education to a certain level: you know about differences but haven't yet gained openness and acceptance. At higher levels you should have gained it though. But.. that remains to be seen.. It can really take any direction.

[ZeroG]

Hey Jennie, this is cool stuff. I love it. 

However, I don't address religion in my questionnaire. (After all I am a political science student! Smiley )

According to the U. S. Constitution you have a point (separation of church and state), however in a deeper sense religion and government are basically the same thing. In the end they serve the same social purpose, allows people to co-exist happily.
 

Instead prejudices come with education to a certain level: you know about differences but haven't yet gained openness and acceptance.

Never thought about that. Your experience in Thailand is paying off. This is like teaching someone how to use a gun, but not teaching them what to use it for. That may be an overly dramatic analogy, but in a way you can't expose them to words like prejudice (is there even Thai word for that?) without teaching that it is wrong. Pre-judging someone or group of people is wrong and can divide a nation.  Exposing people to new things and ideas is risky, but done correctly can be a plus.

Personally, I think separation of church and state is a Western ideology which can be counter productive in a nation like Thailand. Religion can be the glue that binds them and protects them from bad things that can divide a nation. Education, if used properly, can make them aware of those bad things which appear to be good on the surface. 

[Ginafish]

Interesting is that I almost think that the education effect in Thailand is reversed. The low educated that I talked to in BKK were surprisingly positive towards unity and regional differences. These were people in the slum that I believe had little knowledge about the differences at all, so to them this isn't really an issue. Instead prejudices come with education to a certain level: you know about differences but haven't yet gained openness and acceptance. At higher levels you should have gained it though. But.. that remains to be seen.. It can really take any direction.

Do the people who have gained higher education feel superior to those who haven't been educated, and thus want to keep the boundaries and prejudices in place so that they can perpetuate the class system? While those who have less education want to experience less prejudice and so they are more eager to dissolve any caste system or hierarchy of power?

How long do you get to work on your thesis and what subject will your degree be in?

[thartley]

Ginafish, my thoughts on this were more along the lines with what you are saying.  I would think that the more educated a person is, the more aware they are of the social class distinctions.  The less educated (and possibly the more isolated or rural), the less aware of such things.  The thing is, I dont know if awareness itself necessarily feeds a desire to perpetuate a caste system so much as it may open the door to maybe fear of remaining at the bottom of it.

[ZeroG]

The thing is, I dont know if awareness itself necessarily feeds a desire to perpetuate a caste system so much as it may open the door to maybe fear of remaining at the bottom of it.

Terri, you are in a good position to answer this question for yourself. Jennie has a great thesis. It has so many sides, and nooks and cranies to boot! 

I can only sit back and observe. But I do have some ideas to put in the back of your mind.

The ability to learn and communicate knowledge (language) is genetically inscribed. Those who learn and communicate survive.

In Utopia, there are no possessions.

Selfishness is the root of all evil.

When you teach someone something, you say:

it IS that

That little metaphorical association is the mapping of what we see/hear/feel/smell to what we know.

Teaching is powerful. It is all about what you (the teacher) say is that.

So am I way too deep for you guys? 

Be open to the differences between what you see in Thailand compared to what you see at home. When you see something different, ask why did this attitude come about? Religious idols and traditions abound there. Do you get the feeling people are complying because they are supposed to, or do they really get something from their religion?

Something PK always talks about is how people are so "whatever" there. It makes it hard to plan a project or set a meeting time, but...between you and me...that attitude is golden. It values now more than then. Do people there even know the power of now? Is this attitude a way to compete in the global market place? Does it matter?

[Jennie]

Do the people who have gained higher education feel superior to those who haven't been educated, and thus want to keep the boundaries and prejudices in place so that they can perpetuate the class system? While those who have less education want to experience less prejudice and so they are more eager to dissolve any caste system or hierarchy of power?

That could be it, although i believe that young people in Thailand are rather democratic and open to equal opportunities. Think education in general creates this form of openness but that ideas and attitudes vary in different social groups, and thus, it may also lead to the situation you describe.

How long do you get to work on your thesis and what subject will your degree be in?

I have 10 weeks in Thailand but don't have to hand it in until September. If everything turns out as planned I will have a bachelor in Political science.

[sambouri]

Hi my name is Rich and i am new to the forum, so have been catching up on peoples posts. Zero G you know your stuff and seem to have quite the depth of knowledge. One of you posts i wanted you develop a little more if possible...


"According to the U. S. Constitution you have a point (separation of church and state), however in a deeper sense religion and government are basically the same thing. In the end they serve the same social purpose, allows people to co-exist happily."

What are your thoughts on whether religion particulary and also government actually achieve their purpose? I realise both topics are mammouth.

Rich (from Brighton, England).

[ZeroG]

What are your thoughts on whether religion particularly and also government actually achieve their purpose?

I don't want to hijack Jennie's thread, however, government and religion do play a role in the shaping of attitudes. I just want to put some ideas in peoples head which will allow them to look at things a little differently.

Religion was here long before government. Idol worshiping or listening to a higher being was a way communities used prophets to help decide what to do in times of trouble and to get a basic direction for their community. More advanced religions give purpose, establish morals, and dictate how to "play well with others". Religions have evolved to meet the needs of their followers. I think they have achieved this because there are still so many around, and thriving. Isara fills one of those needs, and does it quite well.

Government is for when you just can't get people to 'believe'. Government is for when "thou shall not kill" is not enough. When you need more teeth. Government came out of the need to establish rules for sharing wealth when communities changed from nomadic hunter gatherers to static farming communities where people had jobs and it's citizens had to rely on each other to survive. The static farming communities thrived and historically have obliterated the nomadic hunter gatherer societies. So, government has succeeded, if success is determined by the number of people and the wealth of a nation.

Are we happier in our government ruled nations? I got a glimpse into the life of a hunter gatherer society in "Black Elk Speaks". It is an interview with an American Indian prophet. The American Indians were happy worshiping the mother earth and happy with all she gave them, like I suspect all hunter gatherer communities were. When we gave up on mother earth and started to take control and do things for ourselves (farm our land), we did ourselves in. Sure these farming communities survived, but now our happiness is determined by what we have, and it is never enough.

But that is a dream world. Right now I think religion fills the gap when our governments fail us.

[sambouri]

Cool, its ok i am sure jen wont mind...

Cheers

[oberst]

Hello. I am new to this but have ben reading the abve thread and think it's really interesting. I was just wondering on the couple of above points and wish to pontificate if I may?

I think that religion and goverment go hand in hand. Though religion did exist before goverment it needs a basis of someone being in charge and telling people what to do. It depends on people having blind faith on something that is essentially,folk tales speaking about something they probably didn't witness and assuming that this intangible force is something that should be listened too. Someone has to be in charge of the religion so people can address problems or higher questions to them; but they are essentially still being controlled.

I have the feeling that religion does indeed fill in the gaps where governments fail us but also it's vice versa.

I was also thinking about Jen's research. If a whole country is unified, great, but could one country's unity start to isolate them from an un-unified world? Remember the dark side to unity can often be seen as a dictatorship, or lack of free will. Everybody unified in thoughts, feelings etc.

Sorry to just jump in but this thread is one of the most interesting things I have read in a long time!

Thanks guys!

[ZeroG]

Welcome oberst, nice to see people thinking about this stuff.

I was also thinking about Jen's research. If a whole country is unified, great, but could one country's unity start to isolate them from an un-unified world? Remember the dark side to unity can often be seen as a dictatorship, or lack of free will. Everybody unified in thoughts, feelings etc.

Education can help people to become less unified in thoughts/feelings. The more people learn about the world the more productive and independent they can become. Teaching people how to assemble a shoe is not the same as teaching them about science (be it political/social/physical/biological). I see Jen's fear is that people who learn these things rise up in class which can turn into a divided country. This could clearly happen as people learn and develop knowledge at different rates, and not everyone has equal access to education.

I think instilling the attitude that all people are really the same and they all work as a team could lay the proper foundation. Like everyone has their part (look at a band for example). Knowing more doesn't make you better than someone else. However, people who know more, get rewarded more in terms of pay, which can easily lead to differences in social standing.

So, no education would leave everyone at the same level of 'unknowingness'. This would keep the reward structure level, and keep a nice homogeneous class of people.

It is a delicate balance to say the least and has a lot to do with what people are taught.

[ZeroG]

Looking more at the history of Thailand, some interesting things happened which kind of relate to this thread.

From History of Thailand - Wikipedia

The first ruler of the Kingdom of Ayutthaya, King Ramathibodi I, made two important contributions to Thai history: the establishment and promotion of Theravada Buddhism as the official religion — to differentiate his kingdom from the neighbouring Hindu kingdom of Angkor — and the compilation of the Dharmashastra, a legal code based on Hindu sources and traditional Thai custom. The Dharmashastra remained a tool of Thai law until late in the 19th century.

Looking at Dharmashastra, separation of church and state was considered artificial:

Dharmaśāstra was taken by early British colonial administrators to be the law of the land for Hindus in India. Ever since, Dharmaśāstra has been linked with Hindu law, despite the fact that its contents deal as much or more with religious life as with law. In fact, a separation of religion and law within Dharmaśāstra is artificial and has been repeatedly questioned. Dharmaśāstra is important within the Hindu tradition--first, as a source of religious law describing the life of an ideal householder and, second, as symbol of the summation of Hindu knowledge about religion, law, ethics, etc.

It seems that for a long time that law and religion have been one and the same in Thailand.

Thailand is also known for it's resistance to western colonization:

The heirs of Rama I became increasingly concerned with the threat of European colonialism after British victories in neighbouring Burma in 1826. The first Thai recognition of Western power in the region was the Treaty of Amity and Commerce with the United Kingdom in 1826. In 1833, the United States began diplomatic exchanges with Siam, as Thailand was called until 1939, and again between 1945 and 1949. However, it was during the later reigns of King Chulalongkorn, and his father King Mongkut, that Thailand established firm rapprochement with Western powers. It is a widely held view in Thailand that the diplomatic skills of these monarchs, combined with the modernising reforms of the Thai Government, made Siam the only country in South and Southeast Asia to avoid European colonisation. This is reflected in the country's modern name, Prathet Thai or Thai‐land, used unofficially between 1939 and 1945 and officially declared on May 11, 1949, in which prathet means "nation" and thai means "free".

I wonder if this treating religion as law is what bound the Thai people together to resist western encroachment. I also wonder what the modernising reforms were.

Thai people seem unique in my eyes. I have never been there, but watching what Isara is doing has really given me that impression.

Digging deeper into the parts of Dharmashastra, we see Varna. From that page we can see that social hierarchy is an part of Hinduism (foundation of  Dharmashastra):

Varnashrama dharma (IAST:Varṇāśrama dharma, Devanagari: वर्णाश्रम धर्म) refers to the system of classes of social life and stages of individual life in Hinduism. Varna refers to the belief that most humans were created from different parts of the body of the divinity Purusha.

The classes of society described in the Hindu scriptures are as follows:

    * Brahmin - "scholarly community," includes priests and sadhus.
    * Kshatriya - "rulers and warriors community" includes kings, knights, soldiers.
    * Vaishya - "mercantile and artisan community" includes merchants, businessmen etc.
    * Sudra - "service-providing community"

I don't know if Jennie can use any of this in her research. I just find it fascinating.

[ZeroG]

Hey Jennie,

Any updates on your thesis?

I had some questions which I'd appreciate your opinion on...

Do you think young people there are aware of the religious laws?
Are adults? Is it only for monks? Are they largely ignored now?

Do the classes I listed in my previous post exist now or just historical?

Who do you think has the most influence on young people? Parents? Adults? Westerners? The Authoriti? Others?

Why do you think children are so eager to learn there?

[Jennie]

Interesting discussion going on here! Sorry for being absent, have been working in Bangkok this week.

Any updates on your thesis?

Not in terms of results yet, but I have finished collecting my questionnaires. Went to a fancy university called Assumption University (will upload pictures!) and had some students and teachers fill it out. Also needed 9 more low educated BKK people (preferably young) and I realised that almost all young people working in BKK (at least where I was) were from other regions. Guess that most young BKK people are/can afford studying.

Do you think young people there are aware of the religious laws? Are adults? Is it only for monks? Are they largely ignored now?

Feeling a bit out of my element, since I really don't know that much about religion. Can only refer to what I've been experiencing here in Thailand. I think young people are aware of religious laws. All boys have to, at some point in their lives, live as monks. It can be only a few days or several years. And it is so incorporated into "Thainess" itself. The monarchy, religion and the nation. You can't really avoid it. However, awareness is one thing and practicing the religion is another. Think many young people today don't really care that much and practicing Buddhism in Thailand can easily become more of a habit since it is such a big part of every day life.

Do the classes I listed in my previous post exist now or just historical?

Sorry, I don't really know. But it seems to me that is more Hinduism than Buddhism.

Who do you think has the most influence on young people? Parents? Adults? Westerners? The Authoriti? Others?

Parents and westerners. Depends on forms of influences though. Family ties are strong and young people really listen to their parents. Even have a 29 year old friend that doesn't go out if her parents don't allow her! Westerners definitely have strong influences through tv and movies etc. Westerners are still very much looked up to, however in some situations I think Thai people are quite fed up with westerners intruding with "the correct views" on right and wrong.

Why do you think children are so eager to learn there?

Are they? I'm not so sure! However much I love Thai people I feel that a form of laziness is a part of the culture. Of course there are many students who really want to learn, maybe especially with a western teacher (exciting!). But in general (I'm a bit afraid that I'm generalising here..) I think they just don't care that much. Talked to Kirk about it and he believe there is a difference between boys and girls, which probably can be related to history and boys being more spoilt. I also think many people just don't see the necessity of studies, they just want to get a job, any job, in order to provide for their family. If possible not even leave their home town, and leaving the country is almost completely out of question. Thailand is the world to many Thai people. Why strive for more when you have everything you need right here and now? Why study when  you just want to live and work in your home town with your family?

Of course this is changing more and more, and many young people want to see more, travel, earn money etc. Fascinating is that almost all of my Thai friends study business. Business seems to be seen as the key to all that.

[ZeroG]

Thailand is the world to many Thai people. Why strive for more when you have everything you need right here and now? Why study when  you just want to live and work in your home town with your family?

Obviously you have met people with this attitude. Do these people drive motorcycles? Do they have cell phones? If not, do they want these things?

Complacency is the devil's workshop. Also, they may think Thailand is the world, but it isn't. Whether they accept it or not, we are a global community.

Jean Paul Sartre had a play called No Exit. The famous quote from the play is "Hell is other people." Whether they know it or not, the world is here and it bombards them with TV in megahertz and internet in kilobits. Westerners are influencing them personally in audio sound waves at 2kHz.

I have no doubt your impression is dead on. They just don't know what they are up against.

[ianh68]

Why do you think children are so eager to learn there?

Are they? Wink I'm not so sure! However much I love Thai people I feel that a form of laziness is a part of the culture. Of course there are many students who really want to learn, maybe especially with a western teacher (exciting!). But in general (I'm a bit afraid that I'm generalising here..) I think they just don't care that much. Talked to Kirk about it and he believe there is a difference between boys and girls, which probably can be related to history and boys being more spoilt. I also think many people just don't see the necessity of studies, they just want to get a job, any job, in order to provide for their family. If possible not even leave their home town, and leaving the country is almost completely out of question. Thailand is the world to many Thai people. Why strive for more when you have everything you need right here and now? Why study when  you just want to live and work in your home town with your family?

Of course this is changing more and more, and many young people want to see more, travel, earn money etc. Fascinating is that almost all of my Thai friends study business. Business seems to be seen as the key to all that.

Apologies for belatedly posting a comment on this fascinating topic. You seem to have discovered a kernel of truth here. There will be progressive forces within the Thai labour movement who might be worth talking to. I don't know of any personally but may be able to find out if you want me to.

Just one other thing, be careful what you write and where you write anything about the monarchy. If a BBC journalist can get into hot water, any of us can.

All the very best of luck!

[Jennie]

Promised pictures from Assumption University (ABAC). Fancy fancy!

[Jennie]

Obviously you have met people with this attitude. Do these people drive motorcycles? Do they have cell phones? If not, do they want these things?

As the political scientist Ronald Inglehart argues "individuals pursue various goals in hierarchical order. First, material needs like hunger or thirst have to be satisfied. If this is done, the focus will be gradually shifting to nonmaterial goods." We in the West have our basic needs fulfilled and are becoming increasingly unhappy with our own situation since we don't appreciate this as much. Whereas in Thailand I think they are still at the first stage where you are happy as long as you have all the things you need. However even Thailand is becoming more and more of a consumer society, so yes, most people do have and want these things. But I still think there's a difference and that they actually appreciate material stuff whereas people in the west tend to want them to increase status/popularity etc. But I'm guessing here.. Thoughts welcome!

ian68,
Thanks for joining us! And thanks for the advice, think you're absolutely right..

[Jennie]

So a few updates on my work! Have put all the data into the statistics program SPSS and can now start seeing results. Exciting! Thought I'd share my first bivariate tabel here with you guys: