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Question regarding ”have”

    • 15 posts
    January 20, 2011 4:22 AM PST
    Hi Folks,

    How's it going? Hope everyone has recovered from the New Year celebrations and starting to get back into the groove of things.

    I've got a question regarding the word "have". With some many forum members here who teach English, I was wondering whether any of you could help un-puzzle me.

    "You have submitted a proposal on the 3rd of November 2010"
    "You submitted a proposal on the 3rd of November 2010"

    Recently someone pointed out to me that the first one is grammatically incorrect. It has always felt "funny" to me, because I was wondering why they placed "have" when they could have done without it....Does "have" in this sentence serve a purpose? And would it be the same case for these sentences:

    "You have submitted a proposal today."
    "You submitted a proposal today."

    What is the grammar mistake in the first sentence? The lady who pointed it out to me said that putting a "have" is grammatically incorrect...and I am inclined to agree with her, but I'm not very familiar with the formal rules of English, so I was wondering whether someone here could lend a hand :D
  • January 20, 2011 10:14 AM PST
    I think you've already answered your question - it's just a matter of redundancy. It's like saying "it's very enormous". The word "very" is redundant. That said, I think your examples are pretty forgivable in contemporary English.
    • 29 posts
    January 20, 2011 5:10 PM PST
    I think what you're forming with "have" is the present-perfect tense. "Have", when placed before a verb (+ed), implies an action done in the past but possibly still going on. E.g. "Jon has studied as a student for four years." "Jon studied as a student for four years" (The first one implies that he still is a student, while the second implies he's no longer a student) More info: http://www.eclecticenglish.com/grammar/PresentPerfect1A.html As per the info on that page, the present-perfect is also used to talk about experiences ("I have worked as a volunteer") and past action that has a result in the future/now, just like your example: "You have submitted a proposal today" . On it's own, there's little consequence to the proposal being submitted, but what might follow is a consequence such as: ", and are therefore relieved of duty." Depending on the context, you might also add "already" before "submitted". It would seem that your second sentence ("You have submitted a proposal today") is grammatically correct, although a little context would help in determining whether forming the present-perfect is required. This sentence: “You have submitted a proposal on the 3rd of November 2010? ... seems incorrect. The submission of the proposal was not really recent enough to warrant usage of the present-perfect tense. In this case, this would be best: “You submitted a proposal on the 3rd of November 2010?
    • 15 posts
    January 22, 2011 1:19 AM PST
    Thanks James and James P.

    James P, I agree with what you said. To me, "You have submitted a proposal on [DATE]" sounds wrong, whereas "You have submitted a proposal today" sounds right, although it would have to depend on the context.

    I guess I was just after some "formal" rules....I'm not really familiar with the "proper" rules of English and I just go by ear, whether it sounds funny or not. :) . English is a very confusing language sometimes, and I am very sympathetic to people who have to take it up as a second language.

    Cheers!
    • 16 posts
    January 25, 2011 6:36 PM PST
    Agree with all said so far. Another way of looking at Present Perfect (you have submitted) and Past Simple (you submitted) is that Present Perfect is often used to talk about an event in a period of unfinished time while Past Simple is used to talk about an action in finished time, especially when that time is stated, eg a date, a time etc. So "You have submitted a proposal today" = today has not finished. " You submitted a proposal on 3/11/10" = 3/11/10 has finished.
    Present Perfect seems to be the tense which causes the most problems for lots of learners 'cos it has no direct equivalent in many languages.
    Just a note on different Englishes - In answer to the question, "Where's John?" American English might tend to reply, "He went to Laos." (Past Simple) whereas British English might say "He's gone to Laos." (Present Perfect). America and England - two countries divided by a common language.